"This poses an interesting challenge. Atheism has a kind of “reverse Theodicy”: If the universe is cruel and uncaring, whence Good?
Christianity has difficulty explaining Evil, but Atheism has difficulty explaining Good. Curious, but unlike in the theistic case, not unsolvable."
Yes! I think this also ties into another pattern: atheists have a harder time practicing goodness and virtue than religious people, especially from the religions of the book.
My model is that as you suggest, nihilism or cynism is an attractor for atheism because it can so easily conceptualize the bad, the terrible, the dead. Whereas for all their failings, many religions have shards of the good: charity, humility, trying to improve the world.
Although it's dead now, the Ancient Wisdom Project (https://theancientwisdomproject.com/) was an interesting attempt at distilling these shards through practice: the guy picked a religion/spiritual tradition per month, a couple of key practices from this religion, and did it for the whole month to see what it led to.
"The Buddhists have a concept I really like, called “sotāpanna”, “stream-enterer.” I’ve found myself using this phrase a lot lately.
In this framework, “stream-entry” is the first stage of Enlightenment, where once you have reached this stage, although you are not yet proper capital-E Enlightened, you are “in the Stream”, and you will be washed downstream to the great Ocean of Enlightenment (“nibbāna”), sooner or later. You’ve done, in some sense, the hard part."
I had never heard of this concept, but it resonates a lot with what I wish for. My own difficulties with virtue, wisdom, and progress has been finding a way to enter the Stream (at least the Wisdom version of it), what I expect you would call a reliable Process to keep moving towards the end goal. Instead I find myself taking local gradients that are broadly good, but without knowing that they lead to an end goal, or even really understanding what the good end-goal is.
"atheists have a harder time practicing goodness and virtue than religious people, especially from the religions of the book."
I don't think this is actually empirically true. Goodness of a society empirically tends to correlate with higher atheism rates (e.g. Scandinavian countries), while highly religious countries tend to be less great places to live (with some exceptions in both directions, of course).
A lot of religion sounds like it should work, but it doesn't, and a lot of atheism sounds like it shouldn't work, but it does. I think this is a core tension I try to at least somewhat address in the rest of the series.
"There are deep connections between Les Lumières and Sambodhi, but they’re not the same thing. They are more like two different stabs at something deeper. Neither of them have the Full Story. I will be using the word “Enlightenment” to refer to the Full Story."
either of you familiar with Clark Ashton Smith? The prose 'poem' he wrote with the title "The Nostalgia of the Unknown" is his most famous. It's more than a bit 'purple' (even uses the world 'purpureal', lmao) but I quote it in full for the sake of fleshing out the titular phrase:
The nostalgia of things unknown, of lands forgotten or unfound, is upon me at times. Often I long for the gleam of yellow suns upon terraces of translucent azure marble, mocking the windless waters of lakes unfathomably calm; for lost, legendary palaces of serpentine, silver and ebony, whose columns are green stalactites; for the pillars of fallen temples, standing in the vast purpureal sunset of a land of lost and marvellous romance. I sigh for the dark-green depths of cedar forests, through whose fantastically woven boughs, one sees at intervals an unknown tropic ocean, like gleams of blue diamond; for isles of palm and coral, that fret an amber morning, somewhere beyond Cathay or Taprobane; for the strange and hidden cities of the desert, with burning brazen domes and slender pinnacles of gold and copper, that pierce a heaven of heated lazuli.
"This poses an interesting challenge. Atheism has a kind of “reverse Theodicy”: If the universe is cruel and uncaring, whence Good?
Christianity has difficulty explaining Evil, but Atheism has difficulty explaining Good. Curious, but unlike in the theistic case, not unsolvable."
Yes! I think this also ties into another pattern: atheists have a harder time practicing goodness and virtue than religious people, especially from the religions of the book.
My model is that as you suggest, nihilism or cynism is an attractor for atheism because it can so easily conceptualize the bad, the terrible, the dead. Whereas for all their failings, many religions have shards of the good: charity, humility, trying to improve the world.
Although it's dead now, the Ancient Wisdom Project (https://theancientwisdomproject.com/) was an interesting attempt at distilling these shards through practice: the guy picked a religion/spiritual tradition per month, a couple of key practices from this religion, and did it for the whole month to see what it led to.
"The Buddhists have a concept I really like, called “sotāpanna”, “stream-enterer.” I’ve found myself using this phrase a lot lately.
In this framework, “stream-entry” is the first stage of Enlightenment, where once you have reached this stage, although you are not yet proper capital-E Enlightened, you are “in the Stream”, and you will be washed downstream to the great Ocean of Enlightenment (“nibbāna”), sooner or later. You’ve done, in some sense, the hard part."
I had never heard of this concept, but it resonates a lot with what I wish for. My own difficulties with virtue, wisdom, and progress has been finding a way to enter the Stream (at least the Wisdom version of it), what I expect you would call a reliable Process to keep moving towards the end goal. Instead I find myself taking local gradients that are broadly good, but without knowing that they lead to an end goal, or even really understanding what the good end-goal is.
"atheists have a harder time practicing goodness and virtue than religious people, especially from the religions of the book."
I don't think this is actually empirically true. Goodness of a society empirically tends to correlate with higher atheism rates (e.g. Scandinavian countries), while highly religious countries tend to be less great places to live (with some exceptions in both directions, of course).
A lot of religion sounds like it should work, but it doesn't, and a lot of atheism sounds like it shouldn't work, but it does. I think this is a core tension I try to at least somewhat address in the rest of the series.
"There are deep connections between Les Lumières and Sambodhi, but they’re not the same thing. They are more like two different stabs at something deeper. Neither of them have the Full Story. I will be using the word “Enlightenment” to refer to the Full Story."
lol, based
(also hi connor nice to see youre still alive :D)
I love the use of Mythic language!
Reminds me of Joe Carlsmith's writing, and Scott Alexander sometimes.
either of you familiar with Clark Ashton Smith? The prose 'poem' he wrote with the title "The Nostalgia of the Unknown" is his most famous. It's more than a bit 'purple' (even uses the world 'purpureal', lmao) but I quote it in full for the sake of fleshing out the titular phrase:
The nostalgia of things unknown, of lands forgotten or unfound, is upon me at times. Often I long for the gleam of yellow suns upon terraces of translucent azure marble, mocking the windless waters of lakes unfathomably calm; for lost, legendary palaces of serpentine, silver and ebony, whose columns are green stalactites; for the pillars of fallen temples, standing in the vast purpureal sunset of a land of lost and marvellous romance. I sigh for the dark-green depths of cedar forests, through whose fantastically woven boughs, one sees at intervals an unknown tropic ocean, like gleams of blue diamond; for isles of palm and coral, that fret an amber morning, somewhere beyond Cathay or Taprobane; for the strange and hidden cities of the desert, with burning brazen domes and slender pinnacles of gold and copper, that pierce a heaven of heated lazuli.
Can't wait!